MICHEL MARTIN, host:
I'm Michel Martin, and this is Tell Me More from NPR News.
Now it's time for Wisdom Watch where we visit with some of our most respected leaders and thinkers to get their take on the issues of the day. Today, a woman's whose voice you will recognize instantly. She has been breaking ground in the male-dominated world of journalism since her earliest days as one of only a handful of only a handful of women television writers. After becoming an on-air star on the Today show on NBC, she went to ABC News to become the first woman to co-anchor the evening news.
Her interviews have set the gold standard for getting to the heart of a personal story. But it turns out that her own story is just as fascinating of those of her subjects, and now she's telling it for the first time in her new memoir, "Audition." She's here with me in our Washington, D.C. studio. Barbara Walters, hello. Thank you so much for joining us.
Ms. BARBARA WALTERS (Journalist, Writer, Media Personality): Happy to be here.
MARTIN: And I should mention that we are former colleagues at ABC news, which sounds rather grand given that you were a big cheese, and I was always a tiny little cheese.
Ms. WALTERS: Well, you were a good cheese though.
MARTIN: Thank you.
Ms. WALTERS: You were a tasty cheese.
MARTIN: That actually leads me to my first question. Because, you know, one of the things that I've always liked about you is despite the fact that you were very rich and famous, and you've been hanging around other rich and famous people for a long time, you are not a snob. And I don't think that that's something you can fake. I'm wondering how it is that you've avoided becoming one, given that you've breathed such rarified air for such a long time.
Ms. WALTERS: Well, I'm not sure it's been so rarified. But you know, Michel, since you work in the news department, and did at ABC, you know, you aren't treated the way entertainers are, the way movie stars are. You know, we don't have body guards, and we don't have press agents and agents and managers and the entourage and so on. So, that my private life, up until this book, is very private. And I think that my life is relatively normal. My working life may not be, but...
MARTIN: But one thing is not normal is that you don't drive. See, that's not normal.
Ms. WALTERS: I know, that's so stupid, but I don't really don't do anything well. I do television OK. But I don't drive. I don't play tennis. I don't play golf. I have a lot of, not fears exactly. But one of the, sort of, refrains through the book, and the reason it's called "Audition," was the need to prove myself, for the need to belong given what my background was, what my family situation was, and what television was and to some degree still is. When I came to ABC, I was a failure. I had to work my way back. You don't get very full of yourself when those things happen.
MARTIN: You talked about your private life. For somebody who is so public, I think until now people have known very little about your real private life.
Ms. WALTERS: No, I never talked about my private life. I felt when I was going to do this book that I did not want to do a book and all I did was just say, then I interviewed, then I interviewed, then I interviewed. I mean, that's a little dry and a little soft serving. And I thought, at this point in my life I really do want women, especially young women, to know the things that I went through that maybe they can relate to, professionally and personally.
MARTIN: You talked about your childhood, for example, as one that from the distance looked like it was wrapped in pretty ribbons. I mean, your dad owned this, you know, glamorous nightclub, a series of nightclubs. But as you describe it in the book, it was a very up-and-down existence. You know, and I just wonder if you wouldn't mind talking about what effect you think that had on you? And particularly what effect you think it had on your ability to connect to people later.
Ms. WALTERS: Well, probably the most influential person in my life is my sister who is older by three and a half years, whose name was Jackie. I named my own baby Jackie after her, because I knew that my own sister wouldn't have a baby of her own. She was what was called in those days, mentally retarded. Today, it would be developmentally disabled, intellectually impaired. People would tease her and tease me. And so I loved her, but I also resented her. I think if I'm talking about effect today, it gave me compassion. I understand anyone who has someone disabled in their family. That's a lot of people. So, I mean, it was a very large impact on my life.
I almost called this book, "Sister." My father has this so-called glamorous life. He owned and ran and produced the shows for the greatest nightclubs of that period - the '40s and the '50s - called the Latin Quarter, Lou Walters' Latin Quarter. Yeah, I mean, I had some fascinating times, sitting in the lighting booth watching Frank Sinatra and Sophie Tucker and Milton Berle. But again, it was an isolated childhood. We moved a great deal. And my father made and lost fortunes. He was a gambler. And when I was in my twenties he lost it all. And then I had to support the whole family, so I had to work.
Now, Michel, what does it mean when you have to work? It means if you have a bad day or you're bored or it's too tough, you don't go home to mama. You are mama, and you work! And then when I had my struggles both on the Today show and when I came to ABC with men who really didn't want me as a partner, I knew what it was to fail. And fortunately, you know, I know what it is to survive. And I hope that other people who are going through something similar can learn from that, can relate to that. More than learn from that, this is not a moralistic book.
MARTIN: But you know, it's not ancient history, but I think a lot of people reading this book might be shocked to find out that - for example, at the time, you know, journalism was very much a man's world. I mean, some people would argue it still is, but you know, we can argue that later. But in some way I think people would be shocked to find out that there are a lot of people who felt you just didn't belong there and had no problem saying so to your face. And I would just like to know how you got up every day and took it?
Ms. WALTERS: Well, the major one when I was at NBC - because I had been very happy when Hugh Downs was there, I was a writer on the show and I wrote for Hugh Downs, and Hugh Downs was very instrumental in putting me on the air and they were very happy times. And then a newsman named Frank McGee came in, and he didn't want to the Today show. He thought it was beneath him. He had been doing the nightly news. And he sure didn't want me. And he made it very difficult. He went to the head of news, the president of NBC News, and said he didn't want me to participate at all in the Washington interviews. So the compromise was, well, you can come in after he's asked three questions. So I went off and did them my own, and that's when I did interviews like Henry Kissinger or Dean Rusk, or President Nixon for that matter.
MARTIN: Because if you were out of the studio then the three question rule didn't apply.
Ms. WALTERS: If I was out of the studio, Michel. Right. Right. I mean I guess my philosophy is, if I have one, is you don't whine, you just try to make yourself invaluable.
MARTIN: What do you think is your gift? Because a lot of people are well prepared, a lot of people work hard, and they still don't get what you've got. What do you think your gift is?
Ms. WALTERS: I listen. I write my own questions. And I think they trust me. I think they know that I'm not a hit-and-run driver. I don't start out saying, this is going to be an interview in which I'm going to be a killer so that I can make headlines. And I do it for the viewers, I don't do it for the newspapers to get a headline.
MARTIN: You know, my husband, who's an attorney, you interviewed a number of his clients, of his high-profile clients.
Ms. WALTERS: Yes. I know I have. He's had some very high-profile clients. Give him my best by the way.
MARTIN: I will. But I actually interviewed him about you. I said, you know, what's her secret? You know, what is it that she does in her interviews to get people to open up? Particularly because a lot of these people are under a lot of stress, this is high stakes for a lot of these folks. And what he said was is that you're very easy to talk to, you make people feel as if their stories are important, and that you won't judge them.
Ms. WALTERS: No. I should have said that from the beginning. I'm not judgmental. I may be judgmental in my own mind, but I don't express my own opinions, and I try to keep them out of my interviews. It amazes me today how many so-called journalists there are, especially on television, where it's opinions. I was trained by news departments that you don't give your opinions. But just in my own personality I'm not judgmental. I've gone through too much myself.
MARTIN: How do you sort it out when there's a question you know the public wants to know but which, you know, is on the borderline of appropriate public discourse or boundaries. Like, for example, somebody's sexual orientation. That's an issue that a lot of people are interested these days. How do you sort that out in your own mind whether you're going to ask or not?
Ms. WALTERS: That's very difficult, and I don't out anybody. If they don't want to talk about it, they don't have to. Especially when you're talking to celebrities. They're doing you a favor. Sure you're helping them plug their movie or their book, but most of my interviews are interviews in which we're not just doing that. That's a small part of it.
MARTIN: Then, though, there are those people in the gray area. Of course they are your heads of state, and people who are accountable to the public. Or they're supposed to be, right?
Ms. WALTERS: That's different. You see, I feel if I'm doing a political interview, it's a very different thing. And I also feel - although, up until recently we really weren't interested in the personal life. When I interviewed Richard Nixon - the first interview he did after he was forced to leave office, the first one he did was with David Frost, he was paid for that - it was a live interview about his personal life, or how he got through it. He got very - he said, you know, be serious. He was not about to talk about it.
But it was a different time and I think that politicians, you can do that. I did ask Boris Yeltsin if he drank too much, and he answered it. I did ask Putin if he ever killed anybody because he was a member of the KGB. I thought about it, wasn't sure I should ask him. But I think when you're interviewing a politician it's very different then when you're interviewing a major movie star.
MARTIN: If you're just joining us you're listening to Tell Me More from NPR News and we're speaking with Barbara Walters about her new book "Audition." And of course, one of the big bombshells in this book is your revelation of your relationship with former Senator Ed Brooke. He was the first African-American to be popularly elected to the Senate. And it's so interesting the reaction to this. I mean there have been like international headlines.
Ms. WALTERS: Have there really? Good heavens!
MARTIN: Yes.
Ms. WALTERS: Well, I think what happened is that - I mean it's a very small part of the book. The book is 612 pages, this is five pages - but I think I pre-taped Oprah Winfrey's show, and her people, I think, released it. It was the only thing you knew from the book, and I don't blame her. I mean it was, you know, oh my goodness, really! So I think had the whole book come out, it wouldn't have been like that.
And I wrote about it not because I wanted to be shocking. It was more than 30 years ago for heaven's sakes. But first of all I thought it could not have happened today. First of all, you couldn't have kept it a secret. He was married. And the fact that he was African-American was shocking at those times. It was forbidden territory. Today it's not at all. You know, there are so many relationships that are mixed marriage and, you know, we barely raise an eye.
MARTIN: I was going to ask you about that…
Ms. WALTERS: It's a very small part of the book.
MARTIN: But you were saying that you both felt it was - and friends of yours both advised you that were risking both of your careers by continuing. And why do you think that was? Because he was married or because of the racial difference?
Ms. WALTERS: I think both. I don't think because he was married as much. I think if he'd been white and he was married we would have had to keep his secret, but it wouldn't have had the same impact.
MARTIN: You said that Ed Brooke didn't talk a lot about race, and interestingly enough you don't either. But I noticed that in a show you launched called "The View," your panel's always been diverse in a way that a lot of programs are not. Your panel featured a young Asian-American journalist Lisa Ling back in 1999. Right now two of your regular panelists are African-American, Whoopi Goldberg and Sherri Shepherd. I was just wondering if that was intentional or a happy accident.
Ms. WALTERS: No. It's intentional. Because my father was in show business and because he had entertainers from all over the world, many of the greatest who were African-American, probably more than many people, I grew up more or less color blind. But on "The View," we also felt that it was important. Not just different ages and different views, we always felt that it was important to be as diversified as possible. We've always had an African-American on, and I think it's wonderful this year that we have two, because I mean to have Whoopi who is, you know, I mean, how blessed are we to have Whoopi? And then because Sherri is so funny!
MARTIN: And yet your first African-American panelist was Star Jones…
Ms. WALTERS: And she was wonderful.
MARTIN: And you and she have had this really ugly break. What do you think is going on with you two?
Ms. WALTERS: I think that Star is having a very hard time now. I called her last year. I mean, I never wanted her to leave the show. The network fired her. She had done certain things where she lost the audience's trust. And I just want to have the memories of how wonderful she was for nine years on "The View."
MARTIN: Do you feel that race is part of it?
Ms. WALTER: No. I do not.
MARTIN: I'm curious about this, in part because you are known for getting to people's deep core. You are known for your coverage of international figures, people all over the world. But I'm not sure that there's a Barbara Walters signature on the story of race in America in a way that many of your colleagues have laid down. You lived through the Civil Rights Movement. Have you thought about that?
Ms. WALTERS: Well, I don't think that that was my guiding light, so to speak. And I don't know, I'm trying to think of most of my colleagues, female colleagues, and most of them are not women who've made their reputations or their interviews on race. So, I mean, my role when I was on the Today show and when I was up at ABC was not to cover the racial outburst. It wasn't deliberate. And when I was at - when I came to ABC, most of my interviews were overseas, a great many of them in the Middle East. It was a different kind of battle that was being fought there.
MARTIN: And speaking of that, what do you make of the dynamic now that, you know, Senator Hillary Clinton is running for president. The first, I would say, serious women with a real shot at being president is running. And then Senator Barack Obama, the first serious African-American with a serious chance of winning. I'm just wondering if you feel that this race has brought us anywhere in a conversation about these two significant identities, or do you feel it's become kind of a grievance matching?
Ms. WALTERS: Well, I think that, you know, it's been going on a very long time. And certainly everybody has noted that it's historic. And it's wonderful that we have this opportunity. Now is it getting into something else because it's gone on so long? That's a battle the two of them are having. But there's just - I mean, this will go down in history, and hooray for it. It's wonderful, and wonderful for young people to know.
MARTIN: Presumptuously speaking on behalf of my generation, I think all of us who came after you in the business owe you a debt of thanks for opening doors that would not have opened, at least as quickly, without you and without your hard work. Is there anything...?
Ms. WALTERS: And by the way, Michel, you've opened a few doors yourself.
MARTIN: Well, that's kind of you to say. Is there anything else you want to do?
Ms. WALTERS: No. You see that - that's why I could write this book. I don't want to climb any more mountains. I've finished auditioning. Would I do Osama Bin Laden? Yes, in a flash. You know, I would interview him, yeah. But in general I am at a very peaceful and sweet place in my life, which is why I can go back over years - over 30 years, over 40 years - and write about the personal things I've gone through and the professional things. And hope that it will not just be a good read, but hope that it will impact and that people can relate to it. And a lot of them have gone through what I've gone through, and if it's helped women get ahead, what a reward. I mean how fortunate I am to be able to think that I could make even a little difference.
MARTIN: Is there anything that women of my generation should be doing to build on what it is that you started, that you would like to see us do?
Ms. WALTERS: I think you are. I think you are in all fields. I think you are all over the world. I think you're in every war zone. I think you - I think if I have to deploy anything it's that Americans in general, there's so little interest in foreign affairs, there's so little interest in heads of state, we're so celebrity oriented, and I just didn't want to do those stories anymore. That's a great part of why I left "20/20." And I will hope that the kind of journalism that really makes a difference, that isn't just screaming and yelling and opinions and so forth, I hope that women especially can keep doing that.
MARTIN: The legendary journalist Barbara Walters. Her new book "Audition," is available in book stores now. I thank you so much for coming to see us.
Ms. WALTERS: Thank you, Michel. Thank you.
MARTIN: Remember, at Tell Me More the conversation never ends. Barbara Walters told us she hopes her new autobiography "Audition" will inspire others, especially young women, to live their dreams. So we want to hear from you. Has someone's story influenced you and the choices you've made? We'd like you tell us more about the biographies, the autobiographies, the true life stories that have given you inspiration. Get busy because we want to include your comments in our Backtalk segment this Friday. You can call our comment line at 202-8942-3522. Again that's 202-842-3522 or you can visit us at npr.org/tellmemore.
And that's our program for today. I'm Michel Martin and this is Tell Me More from NPR News. Let's talk more tomorrow.
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