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76

I have the reputation points that I have because I truly loved this platform. I fear now that with all of these seemingly arbitrary rules, we now have a stagnant community, where power users, such as myself, can both no longer find answers to their own questions, and find far fewer interesting questions to respond to.

I have been on this platform for 14 years. I am in the top fraction of a percent of contributors, and I can no longer use this platform in order to engage with experts to answer niche questions: How can an application defend itself from 'use-after-free' or 'double-free' without requiring an application rewrite? (deleted) (appended below).

Both the quality of answers, and the predilection to close important questions is pronounced. I am posting here with a heavy heart to say that a platform which I truly loved has died.

I don't think that 5 inexperienced users on this platform should be able to close a question posted by someone like myself. I asked an important question, that needs an answer. If we can't find experts here, then the only option I have is ChatGPT, and all of this is really sad.

Please do something.


The question at time of this meta post (version 1):


Now that it is almost 2024, what is the most verifiably secure malloc implementation?

To answer this question clearly Google's Malloc comes to mind, but it is notoriously inefficient. It does however provide verifiable defense against both double-free and user-after-free.

Are there any other high-security implementations of malloc that can out perform, or provide additional hardening over Google's Malloc implementation?

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  • 76
    The question you've linked to appears to be clearly and obviously a request for recommendations. Such requests are explicitly off-topic.
    Makyen
    –  Makyen Mod
    2023-11-17 19:42:37 +00:00
    Commented Nov 17, 2023 at 19:42
  • 11
    To be fair to rook, I do honestly believe they thought they were asking a question with an objective answer.
    zwol
    –  zwol
    2023-11-17 19:43:45 +00:00
    Commented Nov 17, 2023 at 19:43
  • 38
    The site is far from perfect and I agree has had its fair share of recent problems, but I don't think that the question that you refer to is the cross that you really want to die on. Pick your fight with the site directors, but please, use a better example, and please be more objective and less emotional, if only to encourage more objective responses.
    Hovercraft Full Of Eels
    –  Hovercraft Full Of Eels
    2023-11-17 19:57:45 +00:00
    Commented Nov 17, 2023 at 19:57
  • 11
    @Makyen Look, the world would benefit if this platform could be used. No one is better off because all of my answers have to be in the comment section instead of the answer section - go back and look at my closed post. People are answering it, but your platform isn't allowing us to converse.
    rook
    –  rook
    2023-11-17 19:59:28 +00:00
    Commented Nov 17, 2023 at 19:59
  • 44
    Why should the site allow conversation? It's not a discussion forum and never has been one.
    Hovercraft Full Of Eels
    –  Hovercraft Full Of Eels
    2023-11-17 20:04:42 +00:00
    Commented Nov 17, 2023 at 20:04
  • 24
    @rook: your getting "great answers" has nothing to do with whether a question is on-topic or off-topic.
    Hovercraft Full Of Eels
    –  Hovercraft Full Of Eels
    2023-11-17 20:05:07 +00:00
    Commented Nov 17, 2023 at 20:05
  • 26
    @rook: again, please keep conversation objective. Personal attacks and insults (i.e., "dense") have no place, not if you want the conversation (which is allowed in meta) to be constructive.
    Hovercraft Full Of Eels
    –  Hovercraft Full Of Eels
    2023-11-17 20:05:57 +00:00
    Commented Nov 17, 2023 at 20:05
  • 5
    @PurpleSky: be sick, fine but please be objective. Stick to verifiable facts, and leave emotions aside, again, if you want a constructive meta discussion.
    Hovercraft Full Of Eels
    –  Hovercraft Full Of Eels
    2023-11-17 20:10:51 +00:00
    Commented Nov 17, 2023 at 20:10
  • 24
    Just from the question title and question body, it’s clear your intention, was to have a discussion on that topic. The question doesn’t contain a single line of C++ code. Stack Overflow is not a discussion forum, it’s never been a discussion forum, while the community might have issues they are not present when it doesn’t receive an question attempting to have an out of scope discussion posed as a question. The question I looked at has zero answers only comments
    Security Hound
    –  Security Hound
    2023-11-17 20:11:24 +00:00
    Commented Nov 17, 2023 at 20:11
  • 12
    @HovercraftFullOfEels I fundamentally disagree with the assertion that this site "is not a discussion forum and never has been one" -- in fact, that's one of my biggest objections to current site policy: all the policies in place that try to force people not to have conversations on the main site are counterproductive -- but nonetheless, there are topics of discussion that are a good fit for the Stack Overflow format, and topics that aren't, and all three of the questions rook posted as test cases were correctly closed, IMNSHO.
    zwol
    –  zwol
    2023-11-17 20:12:27 +00:00
    Commented Nov 17, 2023 at 20:12
  • 7
    @rook that may not be the best way. You'll likely get downvoted again and again, closed again and again, and then you'll come here and say "WHY CAN'T I ASK QUESTIONS AGAIN?". Take some time to refine your question and make sure it's in scope, well formed, all that fun stuff.
    Patrice
    –  Patrice
    2023-11-17 20:12:38 +00:00
    Commented Nov 17, 2023 at 20:12
  • 39
    'I don't think that 5 noobs to this platform should be able to close a question posted by someone like myself.' That is a non-sequitur. More reputation does not equate to a more accurate judgement of question closure. Your question is objectively off-topic because it seeks recommendations for offsite resources.
    CPlus
    –  CPlus
    2023-11-17 20:25:04 +00:00
    Commented Nov 17, 2023 at 20:25
  • 11
    "Karma" is not a construct of Stack Exchange; it's one of Reddit. "Reputation" is the correct term.
    Israel should no longer exist
    –  Israel should no longer exist
    2023-11-17 20:57:46 +00:00
    Commented Nov 17, 2023 at 20:57
  • 4
    SO is almost dead for me. Once I got downvoted because of on legit question I posted (and someone answered correctly). I stopped interacting to SO. Why bother? When GPT came open, I used and got excellent results. R.I.P. SO
    Freddy
    –  Freddy
    2024-10-01 12:37:15 +00:00
    Commented Oct 1, 2024 at 12:37
  • 5
    @tk_ so stop interacting with it, if you really cannot believe that your understanding of it can be wrong.
    Gimby
    –  Gimby
    2025-07-24 12:53:03 +00:00
    Commented Jul 24 at 12:53

10 Answers 10

76

I have been on this platform for 14 years.

Then you ought to understand at least the basics about how it works.

Instead, I am seeing a "new contributor" indicator on your post here - which is to say, in all this time it did not occur to you even once to come to the meta site to ask about policy or contribute an opinion on someone else's interpretation of policy, etc. (I'm not sure exactly how long there has been a separate meta site, but I am confident that there was much fanfare when it was unveiled.)

I am in the top fraction of a percent of contributors

As someone in a roughly comparable position on the leaderboards, let me be the first to assure you that this doesn't mean nearly as much as you seem to think it does. In particular, it does not entitle you to any special treatment, nor does it make you any more qualified to judge what meets the site's standards.

The latter qualification comes from engaging with the community, reading policy (along with the documentation that lays out the rationale for that policy), meditating on the site's purpose, and putting in time to curate the site.

Reputation says precious little about any of this. About 5.8% of my reputation comes from a single answer to this obviously garbage question which I have been trying to get deleted. (If your reaction was "of course that's garbage, it's some noob asking obvious things" then you have failed the exam; go back to the textbook.)

I can no longer use this platform in order to engage with experts to answer niche questions

You absolutely can do this, and it happens all the time on this site. For example, questions tagged language-lawyer with 10+ question score, sorted by newest.

However, you must ask a question that meets the site's standards, which are clearly advertised in multiple easily-accessible locations. The question you attempted fails on multiple grounds.

"Now that it is almost 2024" is the lead-in for something that would be asked on a discussion forum. Stack Overflow is not a discussion forum, and never was. The model was created - albeit experimentally - specifically so that people could avoid the frustrations associated with trying to research a problem and stumbling on a traditional discussion forum. Nowadays we have a much more refined understanding of how to make the system work, but that fundamental idea has not changed.

The question as asked in the title needs more focus (is "too broad", in older terms) as zwol's answer points out - even if we disregard that it's blatantly seeking recommendations.

You start off by proposing a candidate and then immediately writing it off for a reason that is outside of your initial framing. If you really are asking what gives the maximum possible security, then it does not matter whether that solution is inefficient. If you need to care about both then you need a clearly defined way to evaluate the trade-off.

Both the quietly of answers, and the predilection to close important questions is pronounced. I am posting here with a heavy heart to say that a platform which I truly loved has died.

This sort of dramatic rhetoric accomplishes nothing positive.

I don't think that 5 noobs to this platform should be able to close a question

If you cared about policy, you might have noticed that it has only taken three close votes, for years now.

Or that casting a vote to close requires 3000 reputation, which less than 100k user accounts have out of about 21.5 million. (The newest such account appears to have been created in August; verification is left as an exercise.)

But more importantly, please consider that "noobs" are capable of learning things, and some of them do so quickly.

posted by someone like myself.

Again, it has nothing to do with who you are.

You must ask a question that meets standards, and you do not get special privileges in this regard due to your reputation, account age, subject matter expertise or anything else like that.

Ideally, being who you are should result in asking better questions. But that also requires you to put in the effort to understand the standards.

If you imagine that you should be exempt from this then you have fundamentally misunderstood both the community we are trying to build and the goal we are trying to achieve. If anything, we are actively trying to reject the attitudes you express here.

I asked an important question, that needs an answer.

Respectfully, I disagree.

If we can't find experts here, then the only option I have is ChatGPT, and all of this is really sad.

There are still experts here. For example, I can tell you things about the inner workings of Python that very few Pythonistas understand. For that matter, the list of people "last seen this week" includes many people I recognize as past "heroes" of the site, members of the Python dev team, well-known Microsoft employees and dev bloggers, etc. etc. etc.

Please feel free to use ChatGPT as a search engine. (If you are the expert you present yourself as, then you should well understand that it literally does not know what it is saying and all claims in its output require separate verification.)

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    Thank you for the thoughtful response. I fear that thousands of good questions are now being closed for pedantic reasons that harm both the individual and the community. While you are correct that I did break the rules, we must ask ourselves do these new rules help people? And more over, is this platform to help people or not?
    rook
    –  rook
    2023-11-17 20:37:36 +00:00
    Commented Nov 17, 2023 at 20:37
  • 42
    "I fear that thousands of good questions are now being closed for pedantic reasons that harm both the individual and the community." This is because you fail to understand that these questions are not good, and why we sincerely believe this to be the case. "And more over, is this platform to help people or not?" - this has been addressed countless times on Meta. Yes, we help people by existing, primarily as a searchable reference. No, we do not directly help people in the sense of providing a help desk, discussion forum, tech support center or anything else along those lines.
    Karl Knechtel
    –  Karl Knechtel
    2023-11-17 20:42:41 +00:00
    Commented Nov 17, 2023 at 20:42
  • 14
    I understand that you believe that you have good rational for these rules, but it is no secret that engagement has fallen off of a cliff. Disallowing exerts to communicate is likely a contributing factor. Perhaps we need to rethink the role of this platform on today's internet.
    rook
    –  rook
    2023-11-17 20:51:11 +00:00
    Commented Nov 17, 2023 at 20:51
  • 36
    It is not at all inherently a bad thing that engagement has fallen off a cliff. As time passes there should naturally be fewer outstanding, unasked questions that meet standards. The ultimate goal of a Q&A library is zero engagement, because everything that needs to be asked has already been asked and answered so clearly and thoroughly that nobody who finds the question needs any further explanation. A new question is a bug report proposing that a worthwhile question is missing.
    Karl Knechtel
    –  Karl Knechtel
    2023-11-17 21:11:39 +00:00
    Commented Nov 17, 2023 at 21:11
  • 21
    That said, experts are not "disallowed to communicate", and being able to ask questions that blatantly don't meet standards has absolutely nothing to do with such communication.
    Karl Knechtel
    –  Karl Knechtel
    2023-11-17 21:12:27 +00:00
    Commented Nov 17, 2023 at 21:12
  • 5
    You seem to miss the point entirely. You can still be a Q&A site that allows for people to be able to communicate more freely. It is important to note, that even though my question didn't meet these strict rules - the community wanted answer but was unable. If this question was answered, we would all learn something and the AI trained on these questions would then be able to help future generations.
    rook
    –  rook
    2023-11-17 21:22:44 +00:00
    Commented Nov 17, 2023 at 21:22
  • 19
    I understand your position perfectly well. I just strongly disagree. (You should also consider that the community for the most part is opposed to the company's various forays into AI.)
    Karl Knechtel
    –  Karl Knechtel
    2023-11-17 21:23:35 +00:00
    Commented Nov 17, 2023 at 21:23
  • 6
    @rook people who think like you, started Codidact. That's essentially the choice. Accept how Stack Overflow is different from sites like Reddit on purpose and thus you'll have to adapt rather than demand... or don't accept it, and thus go spend your time and energy somewhere else. The cool thing is that Codidact is still in its infancy, so it allows you to pay attention to all the changes that'll be made to it overtime which will slowly but surely turn it into a version of Stack Overflow. But that is with the big IF that it takes off and starts to see volume like Stack Overflow does.
    Gimby
    –  Gimby
    2023-11-21 14:20:02 +00:00
    Commented Nov 21, 2023 at 14:20
  • 17
    @Gimby "people who think like you, started Codidact." as a major Codidact proponent, I strongly disagree. The underlying idea about "community" does not mean losing sight of how a Q&A site works. For example, while we have minimally "threaded" comments with a higher character limit and more access to formatting, the design deliberately keeps them more out of the way. Codidact is orders of magnitude more like Stack Exchange than it is like Reddit.
    Karl Knechtel
    –  Karl Knechtel
    2023-11-22 04:07:49 +00:00
    Commented Nov 22, 2023 at 4:07
  • 5
    @Gimby thank you I have created an account on Codidact. StackOverflow no longer serves any purpose, the leadership forgot what made this site great to begin with, and has stagnated. Very sad to see :(
    rook
    –  rook
    2023-11-25 18:50:00 +00:00
    Commented Nov 25, 2023 at 18:50
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    "Why not just delete your answer" - because the system doesn't like it when people self-delete popular answers. It triggers anti-ragequit detection, etc. But also because being able to point to it helps me explain these issues with Stack Overflow's design to a broad audience.
    Karl Knechtel
    –  Karl Knechtel
    2025-03-11 02:07:23 +00:00
    Commented Mar 11 at 2:07
  • 11
    @bragboy sorry, I can't understand why you think there is anything arrogant in the answer. The OP is the one who acted like experience and reputation should allow someone to ignore the site's purpose. The OP is the one who did not try to understand why we close questions, or try to join the discussion about how the site works for an entire 14 years. The OP is the one who described people with 3000 reputation as "noobs" and wrongly assumed a better understanding of policy than the people who closed the question (two of whom almost certainly had more reputation than OP, incidentally).
    Karl Knechtel
    –  Karl Knechtel
    2025-05-20 18:02:22 +00:00
    Commented May 20 at 18:02
  • 9
    There is objectively nothing wrong with telling people that they should know better, in cases where they objectively should know better. Having respectful dialogue requires the starter of the conversation to rein in the frustration. OP didn't "disagree about" policy, but demonstrated a complete ignorance of what the policy even is, judged the site purely on personal usefulness without any consideration for what we're trying to accomplish, and expressed an intention to leave, without indicating any desire to reconsider. There was therefore no opportunity to "address concerns with empathy".
    Karl Knechtel
    –  Karl Knechtel
    2025-05-21 15:58:14 +00:00
    Commented May 21 at 15:58
  • 3
    @Timmmm This, too, has been well addressed. You are taking things overly literally while also groundlessly ascribing motives to it (it's emphatically not about "driving people away"). I agree that SO "is essentially dead"; I disagree that question influx is a way to measure that. And the people you are talking about are not "mods". After 15 years on the site you really ought to understand the basics.
    Karl Knechtel
    –  Karl Knechtel
    2025-06-06 16:08:09 +00:00
    Commented Jun 6 at 16:08
  • 3
    there is no "new" SO. SO's traffic has dwindled since the advent of usable useful LLMs that answer technical questions. -- the standards don't induce any claim to SO's usefulness. the prospective relaxation of standards, which is being proposed, would make the site worse. -- if you think there's a "niche" for a different site to be created, that would be a fine proposal. don't try to change what you can't change. do something new. create competition. let the market (of brains, or users at least) sort it out.
    Christoph Rackwitz
    –  Christoph Rackwitz
    2025-06-22 01:54:44 +00:00
    Commented Jun 22 at 1:54
58

I have a lot of bones to pick with both Stack Exchange corporate and with the moderation policies enforced by the Stack Overflow userbase, but in this specific case, how could you have expected any other outcome? You asked a question that falls squarely within the bounds of "seeking recommendations for books, tools, software libraries, etc." which has been an official close reason since before I joined the site. It is not a question with a single objective answer. It would take me an entire computer science paper just to pin down what 'verifiably secure malloc implementation' means enough that I could assess the quality of any given implementation.

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    I have posted three times, and all are getting closed. I was once able to ask questions here. And now I am getting answers... in the comments because the question was closed. People wanted to answer, but 5 people decided that is don't deserve an answer.
    rook
    –  rook
    2023-11-17 19:47:55 +00:00
    Commented Nov 17, 2023 at 19:47
  • 15
    @rook three people for close, these days.
    user4581301
    –  user4581301
    2023-11-17 19:53:48 +00:00
    Commented Nov 17, 2023 at 19:53
  • 3
    @rook I'm kind of six of one, half a dozen on the other on the three vote close. It's great for the questions I think need closing, but wastes a lot of reopen votes for the ones I think didn't need closing. I'm with Zwol that under the posting guidelines your question was doomed to its fate. Even without a hard "no recommendations" rule the question would have been difficult to manage in the Q&A format. It's a question that needs answering, though I'm not sure I'd trust most of the answers it would get on SO. I expect to burn a lot of rep on answer downvotes, and I'm not even a security pro.
    user4581301
    –  user4581301
    2023-11-17 20:14:43 +00:00
    Commented Nov 17, 2023 at 20:14
  • 13
    I looked at all three of your questions, and ... sorry, you need to look elsewhere for the answers to these questions. As an academic the first thing I would try is walking the citation graph in both directions from scholar.google.com/scholar?cluster=9894423302964436180 .
    zwol
    –  zwol
    2023-11-17 20:16:43 +00:00
    Commented Nov 17, 2023 at 20:16
  • 10
    @user4581301 I'm very much an anti-deletionist and because of that I do think three-vote close was a mistake. Deletion should be only for spam and abuse; closing should be for questions that either cannot be answered at all (insufficient information, failed to ask a question) or cannot be effectively answered within the site format (the case here) and there should be a high bar for all three. Several times I've found legitimate questions that had been closed because they looked like there wasn't enough information for a definitive answer, to people who haven't seen that problem before.
    zwol
    –  zwol
    2023-11-17 20:24:03 +00:00
    Commented Nov 17, 2023 at 20:24
  • 8
    I think we're mostly in agreement, zwol. I'm a bit harsher on the closing because I prefer that the question not just be clear to the asker and an expert, but that it should be clear enough that the next reader with a similar problem can make the connections between the question and the answer to be sure it's applicable to them and their problem. A really good answer fills in enough of the missing information to do this. Deletion, too damn easy and undeletion too damn hard--because you can't find the question.
    user4581301
    –  user4581301
    2023-11-17 20:38:54 +00:00
    Commented Nov 17, 2023 at 20:38
  • Yes they go against the rules. But the point is that SO used to allow those questions before the 'great split'. Not being allowed to ask fellow programmers "whats a good xxxx ?" is plain dumb. If SO does not want to sail off into the sunset then that rule needs to be reconsidered.
    pm100
    –  pm100
    2025-05-15 21:01:56 +00:00
    Commented May 15 at 21:01
  • 2
    @pm100 Questions that are on topic here are on topic here, regardless of anywhere else that they may be on topic. But we expect questions to meet additional standards beyond topicality. The reasons for not allowing "what's a good xxxx?" questions have been extremely thoroughly argued. Stack Overflow isn't about "asking fellow programmers" the way that one would conversationally around the water cooler (or on a forum); it's about building a Q&A reference library.
    Karl Knechtel
    –  Karl Knechtel
    2025-06-06 01:48:04 +00:00
    Commented Jun 6 at 1:48
  • 2
    In short: the site has a very specific project; it was the intent from the beginning, it just took a while for people to figure out what's actually required to achieve those goals. Those goals don't stop being valid in their own right simply because a lot of programmers would rather have a different UX.
    Karl Knechtel
    –  Karl Knechtel
    2025-06-06 01:49:25 +00:00
    Commented Jun 6 at 1:49
10

I made a conscious decision recently to stop using SO, and when I discussed it with my colleagues and professional friends, I was a little surprised to find out I was the last of my cohort to still use it.

I stumbled over this question as something of a freak chance.

Here's a summary of why some of my colleagues and I stopped:

Extremely Emotionally taxing

The core problem I find it is extraordinarily emotionally taxing to get an answer.

I'm a professional. I have a job. For the most part, I do it quietly and calmly and respectfully to all my colleagues. But when I need to come here, it's a gruelling grind that ultimately becomes an emotional grind. I don't have this same issue anywhere else in my career, and I don't get it from any other forum.

I can spend up to 3 to 4 hours searching for an answer on Google and direct search on SO, drafting a new question with cross references, backstory, everything I've tried, going back and forth trying more things just in case. I can check and triple-check the help to see what's on topic...

... and then I still have to spend the next hour or two arguing just trying to justify that this is indeed a worthy question for the site.

It's too much. I was just looking for an answer to a question.

I can take the exact same problem after the same Google searches yielded no results, draft a question in only 2 minutes and then throw it at any of: GitHub Discussions, Reddit, Library-specific email lists, public Slack channels, and 🎉 helpful answers come back.

By the time I'm done on SO / SE, I'll have burned half a day of Dev time and be completely burned out emotionally.

SO wasn't always this way. Something went wrong.

Slow poisons

Some problems that I've observed for a long time don't cause immediate problems, but I believe they have slowly poisoned the site over the years.

Aging content

Problem: SO's answers are already too old, and it's getting worse.

SO's creators reference this here, start listening from 12:00 to 14:00.

SO has many rules that try to stop questions being asked that simply age out. That's often the justification for "no software suggestions". Other rules are intended to have a similar effect.

But that's a fool's errand that can't work with the pace of change in the software world.

Google hits will often take me to pages over 10 years old nothing pointing me to whether the answer has aged well. I then have to spend at least another half hour on other sites just to be sure I'm not using some archaic deprecated technique.

Poorly applied de-duplication rules have compounded the problem.

SO has no way to automatically age out questions or allow the relevant ones to be earmarked as still relevant a decade later.

Not well aligned with User needs

Problem: The site doesn't allow people to ask the questions they actually need.

As the OP here points out, rules that may have been made in good faith are bit by bit carving out large chunks of questions that people do need to ask. This especially goes for professional questions to the point that it's hard to find something I need in my daily work (senior software dev) that could reasonably fit in SO's rules.

Yes, there are limits to what can be asked here; there MUST be. But the rules we have too often cut across the very needs of professional devs and engineers that might otherwise draw them here.

As an example:

The ban on opinion-based questions was made for worthy reasons. But the extreme application of this rule has also driven out "professional opinion", where professional opinion is much more than just red vs blue, PC vs Apple nonsense.

I know many will want to tell me "we tried that", but what was never assessed was how this rule ultimately drives away users.

Heresy!

Problem: Inability to discuss problems gradually poisons the community.

"Didn't you know? We're building a database ..."

"Are you aware that Stack Overflow has a very different goal than..."

Yes. We know.

These extraordinary responses (and much worse) often follow a pattern I've seen many times in religious circles responding to heresy. I've never seen it anywhere else but meta SO/SE.

The pattern is:

  • The religious person finds it difficult to comprehend heresy. They might struggle to echo back heretical words even prefixed with "you believe ..."

    This behaviour is hard to visualise. This isn't "the elephant in the room"; no, that gets fed and watered daily. Heresy is the hippo in a monastery that the monks simply cannot see. They'll move out of its way when they don't see it coming. They'll press themselves to the wall to get around the thing but claim it was all because god likes walls Psalm 51:18 & Isaiah 26:1. And don't mention the hippo poop, they'll angrily tell you "you put that there!"

  • When they cannot hear the heresy, in the void left behind, the religious person becomes compelled to explain their religion. They can't discuss the heresy, so they can't argue against it. Instead, they resort to explaining religious fundamentals that aren't even related.

  • Alternatively, they lie about what the heretic actually said, and argue with the lie.

    This is commonly known as a straw man argument. It lets them argue with the heretic, claim that he's wrong, but still not actually comprehend what he was ever saying.

Any single mention of the rules having unintended consequences here is treated as heresy, and what follows is immediate responses of both "Didn't you know? We're building a database ..." and much worse, including straw man arguments that tell likes about an OP's beliefs.

Everyone's a moderator

Problem: Poor low-level moderation is souring the community.

Hopefully ◆Moderators would agree that there is a real skill in their role, and it's not a job for everyone. Good moderation helps a community thrive, bad moderation kills it stone dead.

But the design of SO's moderation approach makes everyone a moderator of a sort, making close votes and negative votes on questions down past 0.

This isn't an approach I've seen replicated anywhere else, and I think that perhaps speaks to a more general opinion of whether this feature is ultimately a good idea.

The most common frustration here is with really weird close votes, often by people with zero domain knowledge of the question.

Anecdotally, across SE, I've seen:

  • Theoretical network protocol questions closed because they didn't list their own network CIDR / IPs.
  • Questions immediately closed needing details because someone commented "did you mean red or blue acme widgets" The correct answer transpired to apply to both, red and blue, and the detail was irrelevant.
  • Questions closed for not showing what was tried, when the question clearly stated their original approach, and that it had stopped working with a version release, and clearly stated they couldn't find any other option.
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  • 5
    “Extremely Emotionally taxing” this describes it really well for me. I had an issue that neither Chat GPT nor SO had the solution — very reluctantly, I decided to post it here.. and bam: question was closed because it’s supposedly not related to programming — and when I realized, I had spent 1 hour reading people complain on SO Meta why using SO is so bureaucratic
    Bersan
    –  Bersan
    2025-09-05 03:53:56 +00:00
    Commented Sep 5 at 3:53
  • 2
    @Bersan to my mind, that question also highlights how SO is nolonger aligned with user needs. It seems very strange that obtaining debugging info for your running code would be off topic here.
    Philip Couling
    –  Philip Couling
    2025-09-05 04:43:45 +00:00
    Commented Sep 5 at 4:43
  • 2
    @Bersan your question looks related to devops, i.e. configuring and using programs, rather than programming. there's a specific Stack Exchange for that.
    Christoph Rackwitz
    –  Christoph Rackwitz
    2025-09-05 08:33:29 +00:00
    Commented Sep 5 at 8:33
  • 2
    @ChristophRackwitz quite honestly, it doesn't look like dev-ops at all. Extracting debug information should surely be a matter for programming. It rather demonstrates the point of both the OP here on meta and points I've made: that developers seeing debug information is now somehow off-topic on a programming Q/A. Just because a particular task might be undertaken in the course of dev-ops does not mean it's not also a core part of software development. The argument this way and that speaks to my core point of how emotionally taxing this has all become.
    Philip Couling
    –  Philip Couling
    2025-09-05 10:02:26 +00:00
    Commented Sep 5 at 10:02
  • 2
    "debug information" is not a magic spell that turns a misbehaving program into a programming matter. if, say, GIMP threw an error message at you, and you aren't rooting around in its source code to track that down, then it's not programming. if systemd threw an error message at you, same thing. kubernetes is no different. it is usage of programs. if your argument had any pull, then half the issues on Unix & Linux and Server Fault should be programming. the whole point of this is to send questions to the most appropriate Stack Exchange. configuring kubernetes involves no writing of code. Stack Overflow is not a catch-all.
    Christoph Rackwitz
    –  Christoph Rackwitz
    2025-09-05 10:19:36 +00:00
    Commented Sep 5 at 10:19
  • 2
    @ChristophRackwitz This argument is exactly what I was talking about "emotionally taxing". Getting access to appropriate debug information is absolutely part programming, and mentioning K8s doesn't make it off topic any more than questions on gdb. But whatever your opinion this discussion is off topic for this answer and this question. The right place for you to post these comments is there
    Philip Couling
    –  Philip Couling
    2025-09-05 10:30:59 +00:00
    Commented Sep 5 at 10:30
  • @ChristophRackwitz and no, I post a lot on U&L, those Q/A are substantially different to this argument. It would capture pretty much none of them.
    Philip Couling
    –  Philip Couling
    2025-09-05 10:36:48 +00:00
    Commented Sep 5 at 10:36
  • 3
    @ChristophRackwitz If my question is more suited to another forum in the Stack Exchange community, why isn't it redirected/moved there, instead of being closed down?
    Bersan
    –  Bersan
    2025-09-05 12:13:11 +00:00
    Commented Sep 5 at 12:13
  • 1
    the interface for moving questions is quite limited. very few movable questions are actually moved. your asking about this is very valid and that situation should be improved.
    Christoph Rackwitz
    –  Christoph Rackwitz
    2025-09-05 13:16:45 +00:00
    Commented Sep 5 at 13:16
  • 2
    @PhilipCouling nobody said anything contrary to "access to appropriate debug information is absolutely part programming". "appropriate debug information" applies to non-programming situations too, and this is not a programming situation. you just assume that it is. "debug info" being involved or sought does not make this a programming situation. we both know you're just trying to stand your ground and win the argument with rhetoric. don't try to argue without logic in this place. this place is full of Vulcans. bad arguments are pointed out swiftly.
    Christoph Rackwitz
    –  Christoph Rackwitz
    2025-09-05 13:19:12 +00:00
    Commented Sep 5 at 13:19
  • @ChristophRackwitz this is way off topic. There is absolutely zero information on the “situation” so you have zero evidence to suggest this is not a programming situation. Your only reason to say so is the mere mention of K8s. And this is exactly what I’ve expressed in this answer. The guilty until proven innocent altitude on SO is ridiculous. Your attitude here is perfectly highlights the toxic atmosphere that has become so endemic. Guilty until proven innocent is just an extraordinarily exhausting approach to all concerned.
    Philip Couling
    –  Philip Couling
    2025-09-05 15:59:01 +00:00
    Commented Sep 5 at 15:59
  • @ChristophRackwitz and no I’m not just trying to stand my ground. I genuinely think this is a good example of rules being applied blindly without thought. This is a good example of what I was describing in this answer. The question under discussion is just trying to get the stdout from the OPs own code from a system that thousands of other developers have used before. It’s no different to asking how to get info out of GDB or any other debugging tool.
    Philip Couling
    –  Philip Couling
    2025-09-05 16:20:00 +00:00
    Commented Sep 5 at 16:20
  • This answer contains a lot of information, maybe too much for one answer. I'd prefer seeing 4 separate answers, each one with a separate issue. I would vote 4 times then (+3; -1).
    anatolyg
    –  anatolyg
    2025-10-03 08:50:46 +00:00
    Commented Oct 3 at 8:50
4

I've always been a staunch defender of Stack Overflow's approach to moderation. I've joined every argument on social media to defend the right to close, the right to be pedantic, the right to purge any opinions and leave only pure facts.

I knew this approach had costs, but I always laughed in the face of people who were "afraid of toxicity" on Stack Overflow. They just never understood that we're building a library here, a storage of knowledge for the generations to come. Even if it's hard and painful at times, it's worth it in the end.

I've spent immeasurable time moderating, trying to get questions of schoolkids to the point of being worth being added to the library. I've joined multiple sites on Stack Exchange and have even almost become a ♦moderator, coming fourth with three open positions.

But...

Recently...

Recently, I've tried applying my usual strategy of posting a somewhat tricky question and slapping a max bounty of 500 points on it. It always worked like a charm and was basically free thanks to passive upvote income.

Of course, a bunch of users downvoted my question, closed it, I edited it 10 times, added tons of content, removed even more, added the most complete MCVE in existence, got the question reopened — the usual stuff. It was sad to remove interesting info from the question, but whatever, I know how satisfying the downvoters is done, I'm a veteran here.

And then... no replies. People complaining about my question disappeared the moment there was nothing left to complain about.

No worries! After 2 days, I just slap my 500-point bounty and then bathe in the attention of pros flexing their knowledge, lowly rep farmers trying to get a free bite from upvotes and everyone in between... right?

After 7 days, all I got was:

  • A bunch of comments saying I want wrong things because everything not yet implemented is obviously wrong and nobody in the right mind would ever want wrong things.
  • A comment from a ChatGPT enjoyer saying it can't be done and that I should discuss the issue with ChatGPT for further details on the impossibility.
  • One comment vaguely hinting in the right direction.

ZERO. ANSWERS.

ONE. HUNDRED. VIEWS.

NO. PROS.

NO. FARMERS.

NO-BO-DY.

Nobody has even tried to get a free half-bounty payout from 2 random upvotes. And that's with competition among maybe 2 or 3 bounties of that size and 20 bounties in total.

What's funny is that after spending one more day (on top of the previous two) trying to find the answer myself, I did find it. And any pro who's knowledgeable in that platform, could easily answer my question in like 10 minutes, because the solution is literally coming in the next release in a few months, with preview builds available.

Man, I give up.

There's no point.

This place is dead.

Just look:

DEATH-1

It's −94% in 3 years folks, and it isn't getting better. If anything, it's somehow getting worse.

When I zoom in on the recent 4 months, it's still −36%. And with ZERO increase in September. If that's not the sign of death, I don't know what is.

DEATH-2

It's been great to be a part of this community. But it's time to move on.

I hope whatever knowledge I've contributed to Stack Overflow is still useful to LLMs and other AIs, or whatever comes next. Humans don't seem that interested anymore, so maybe robots will be. Anybody know where to get decent brain implants?

23
  • 5
    so... you asked one question that wasn't a hit and are giving up? it's only got 2 downvotes.
    Kevin B
    –  Kevin B
    2025-10-06 14:47:26 +00:00
    Commented Oct 6 at 14:47
  • 4
    @KevinB Yes, That's exactly what I've said. You've summarized my pathetic essay so precisely I'm frankly contemplating deleting it and replacing it with your comment. That's how insightful, thought-provoking and yet concise your analysis is. Pure perfection.
    Athari
    –  Athari
    2025-10-06 14:52:57 +00:00
    Commented Oct 6 at 14:52
  • 4
    @KevinB Lack of new users is the least of my concerns; worrying about that metric is what SO owners are for. :) I'm worried about old users disappearing (and their answers). My first thought when the AI downfall of SO started, was, "Yay, no more homework, less noise, more content!" Boy was I wrong. // And it isn't just pros. As much as rep farmers are a plague of endless low-quality answers, them disappearing is a bad sign too.
    Athari
    –  Athari
    2025-10-06 15:18:53 +00:00
    Commented Oct 6 at 15:18
  • 3
    @KevinB I can't help noticing you've completely shifted your focus from SO to MSE since mid 2023. As a veteran of Monica-gate, I understand the pleasure of dunking on SO owners trying to save their face, but it feels sad nowadays as it's no longer punching up. // I "knew" what should be prioritized 5 years ago to get SO to a better place. But I sure as hell have no idea how to salvage SO now. Literally zero ideas. We'll be lucky if we don't have to use Wayback Machine to access SO in a couple of years, at this rate.
    Athari
    –  Athari
    2025-10-06 15:20:59 +00:00
    Commented Oct 6 at 15:20
  • 1
    the thing is... a lot of them were already gone. the site has been in a downward spiral for a long time. people leaving the network is a natural thing, people change careers, find new communities, or stop needing what SO offers. If those we lose aren't being replaced with new users because new users for whatever reason... the only way forward is down.
    Kevin B
    –  Kevin B
    2025-10-06 15:21:49 +00:00
    Commented Oct 6 at 15:21
  • 2
    I've been more or less inactive on SO for a lot longer than 2023, ;) I stopped actively answering when there was no more gain for me. no more privileges, and i felt i wasn't learning anymore from answering.
    Kevin B
    –  Kevin B
    2025-10-06 15:22:26 +00:00
    Commented Oct 6 at 15:22
  • 2
    "Back in the day", SO had an intrinsic value to developers. Not only did anything you do here become useful to anyone else that came across the same problem, but there was this idea, that, with SO Jobs, our actions here would have long-term career value. Neither of these are true today. so... why should I even bother trying to answer questions? "Just to help someone else" works for a little while... but after a while you just get burnt by the toxicity of others not getting what they want out of the network.
    Kevin B
    –  Kevin B
    2025-10-06 15:30:14 +00:00
    Commented Oct 6 at 15:30
  • 8
    @KevinB as I understand this answer, it has nothing to do with "engagement of new users". This is about experts no longer engaging with complex questions and/or being willing to provide an answer for a 500rep bounty. So it's the exact opposite issue - the experienced users are leaving or restricting their engagement. Which is something that has been happening for a while now but certainly seems to have accelerated; e.g. in the python tag lots of the "usual suspects" that would answer questions 5-10 years ago either stopped answering completely or are now only seen very rarely.
    l4mpi
    –  l4mpi
    2025-10-06 15:32:10 +00:00
    Commented Oct 6 at 15:32
  • 5
    @KevinB and for me, the value of SO was never SO Jobs or including my rep in the CV, but the content itself. That went downhill with the removal of the "too localized" close reason. Also, only a very tiny part of new user engagement would be adding experienced new users which can help answer questions, as most new users are of the "please do my homework" faction instead of experts. And SE has been entirely focusing on that faction and not on the experts...
    l4mpi
    –  l4mpi
    2025-10-06 15:33:31 +00:00
    Commented Oct 6 at 15:33
  • 1
    All you really have to look at for this is the timespan in which people stay on the network, year to year. The "equilibrium" that was reached in 2014 never recovered. Every year, we lost more experts than we had new users stick around. It doesn't matter how much effort we put into the content if we can't keep users around. The site being a wikipedia for programming questions was never the primary thing that attracted people here.
    Kevin B
    –  Kevin B
    2025-10-06 15:39:06 +00:00
    Commented Oct 6 at 15:39
  • 3
    @KevinB 2013—2017 is stagnation. 2017—2022 is −38% in 5 years, which is considerable, but I wouldn't call it a spiral of death. What comes next is −50% drop in merely 6 months since ChatGPT release, followed by −90% in 2 years — that's a spiral with no way back. I wish SO was "dying" like in 2020, to be frank. It was the kind of "dying" that takes many decades. Now I'm not so sure.
    Athari
    –  Athari
    2025-10-06 15:42:53 +00:00
    Commented Oct 6 at 15:42
  • 2
    it simply accelerated what was already happening. who wants to stick around curating/competing with ai slop for a company welcoming it in and promoting it.
    Kevin B
    –  Kevin B
    2025-10-06 15:43:57 +00:00
    Commented Oct 6 at 15:43
  • 3
    @Athari AI buttons do nothing for them. it won't bring back traffic, it's not solving a problem better than any other external AI tool. It's fad chasing. Just as SO's search was never going to be better than google for find an answer, neither will their AI tool. it's a waste of time that could have been spent improving their product.
    Kevin B
    –  Kevin B
    2025-10-06 17:21:34 +00:00
    Commented Oct 6 at 17:21
  • 7
    apropos bountied questions... I avoid bountied questions because they are soon overrun with vulture answerers hoping that OP/the bountier can't tell what's even an acceptable answer (it works, it's not doing unreasonable things). so posting anything good on such questions is an invitation to be copied and outdone by someone who copies the human answers into the AI and synthesizes a more rounded out answer with zero effort.
    Christoph Rackwitz
    –  Christoph Rackwitz
    2025-10-06 18:02:51 +00:00
    Commented Oct 6 at 18:02
  • 1
    @ChristophRackwitz Er... Is this still relevant? I haven't noticed any vultures either. They're either all dead or migrated to some other place where there's more food than dried up bones and a bunch of tumbleweeds rolling in the distance.
    Athari
    –  Athari
    2025-10-08 03:58:07 +00:00
    Commented Oct 8 at 3:58
-5

I have 23,000 reputation points, which is almost all gleaned from my contributions pre-2023.

These days, my good questions are voted for closure very often; and the main difference between Stack Overflow and other Stack Exchange sites vs the LLMs is that LLMs are always polite and explanatory.

The people here vote-to-close with abandon and can be quite rude.

Why would I dare ask another high-quality question when I believe people will just capriciously close it?

3
  • 19
    I don't see the problem? If you're happy using LLMs, then just go and use LLMs. Just don't put their output on SO.
    Cerbrus
    –  Cerbrus
    2025-03-10 12:39:18 +00:00
    Commented Mar 10 at 12:39
  • 5
    "the main difference between Stack Overflow and other Stack Exchange sites vs the LLMs is that LLMs are always polite and explanatory." No, I would say the main difference is you're almost always guaranteed to get nonsense/hallucinations when you ask an LLM something.
    TylerH
    –  TylerH
    2025-05-27 15:43:34 +00:00
    Commented May 27 at 15:43
  • 11
    "These days, my good questions are voted for closure very often" Citation(s) needed. Since you didn't include any specific question links as evidence, I would guess these 'good' questions of yours were, in fact, not good.
    TylerH
    –  TylerH
    2025-05-27 15:45:43 +00:00
    Commented May 27 at 15:45
-5

The new activity numbers speak their clear language and the downward trend is still not broken (we are now at ~95% of reduction in new questions). I'm very curious how that trend continues in the next months.

To me, this either means a greatly diminished significance of Stack Overflow in the future (to me the number of questions that can be asked is still much higher than the number of questions asked, for example I ask myself a lot of questions every day but not necessarily on Stack Overflow) or the need to reinvent itself. Like for example concentrating on more complex questions as suggested in the question here or in the answer by Yeerk (but without compromising quality of course). I don't think this would be the worst. If there is something where experts can shine than in the very high quality area.

But our system does not seem to be designed well for it. For example, although it's controversial, the question about a secure malloc implementation by rook was closed and later deleted. My general guess is that the number of experts willing to answer really difficult to answer questions is so low, complex questions would likely remain unanswered for a longer time here. It's unclear if we could pull that off actually. And we also tend to not upvote complex questions much, even delete them sometimes, which means that we don't want to have them.

Meanwhile the existing content ages. And while we are at it, having to read multiple answers to a question and possibly comments just to get some information always was a bit clunky and nowadays feels even more so. I understand why we have it but from an information retrieval side it's not so useful to dilute information so much.

So overall, the usefulness of the current platform is strongly reduced and I would be now at a point where I think the whole platform needs a more radical change, more towards Wikipedia style and more towards identifying more complex problems and seeking solutions to them, even if they currently would fall outside the scope because of requiring too long answers. High quality solutions to complex programming problems could be the new unique selling point. It's highly unlikely though that we can achieve that.

27
  • 10
    "My guess is that the number of experts willing to answer really difficult to answer questions is so low" That question wasn't closed because it was "difficult". It's closed because it's asking for a library, 14 minutes after being posted, nearly 2 years ago. It got through the reopen review process 5 times, and was voted to be kept closed all those 5 times. Just because you want it undelete and re-opened, doesn't mean that the rest of the community is wrong.
    Cerbrus
    –  Cerbrus
    2025-06-23 07:12:06 +00:00
    Commented Jun 23 at 7:12
  • 5
    The answer by Yeerk you're linking to can be summarized as "Disable most quality control mechanisms"... Sure, that'll lead to more questions. More junk questions that nobody benefits from. Nothing you suggest promotes the answering of more complex questions. Do you know what would encourage the experts to answer? More quality control. Less junk to sift through. SE actually listening to them instead of pushing experiment upon experiment into their face.
    Cerbrus
    –  Cerbrus
    2025-06-23 07:24:30 +00:00
    Commented Jun 23 at 7:24
  • 4
    "[95% of reduction in new questions] means a greatly diminished significance of Stack Overflow" has been claimed over and over and over yet no one can explain how number of questions asked is even relevant to Stack Overflows mission.
    cafce25
    –  cafce25
    2025-06-23 07:29:21 +00:00
    Commented Jun 23 at 7:29
  • 1
    @cafce25 So far 90% has been claimed. I claim 95%. To me it looks a bit self-evident, that it means a lower significance, but others may simply disagree. I will try to clarify a bit more.
    NoDataDumpNoContribution
    –  NoDataDumpNoContribution
    2025-06-23 07:33:44 +00:00
    Commented Jun 23 at 7:33
  • 5
    Yeah, complex questions aren't the problem here.
    Cerbrus
    –  Cerbrus
    2025-06-23 07:40:24 +00:00
    Commented Jun 23 at 7:40
  • 4
    I'm not saying your conclusion is wrong per se, I'm saying your metric is irrelevant, or at least neither you (and no one else as far as I know) has been able to explain how it is.
    cafce25
    –  cafce25
    2025-06-23 07:40:30 +00:00
    Commented Jun 23 at 7:40
  • 10
    A reduction in questions is only a problem when there weren't way too many unwanted questions to begin with - there were. The site will still be on the top search results of a web search regardless of a drop in new questions, so it'll remain as useful as it ever was. The problem is more - will the site survive given that income is needed to keep it afloat. That is less certain.
    Gimby
    –  Gimby
    2025-06-23 08:04:16 +00:00
    Commented Jun 23 at 8:04
  • 1
    There was nothing intrinsically complex about the example question, either.
    Karl Knechtel
    –  Karl Knechtel
    2025-06-23 08:54:06 +00:00
    Commented Jun 23 at 8:54
  • 6
    " If we want to see how complex questions fare, we can simply come up with a few and see how they fare." - No, you cannot simply "come up with" complex questions that meet the site's standards. But we can look at actual recent examples such as stackoverflow.com/questions/79646502, from people who either were lucky enough to uncover a suitable topic, or were experts sharing expert-level knowledge that fits the format.
    Karl Knechtel
    –  Karl Knechtel
    2025-06-23 09:56:40 +00:00
    Commented Jun 23 at 9:56
  • 3
    Stack Overflow's unique selling point was always quality; the management focus on new user acquisition and Line Go Up is what destroyed that USP by forcing us to wade through deserts of question sand to find pearls, causing many curators and subject-matter experts to give up. Now we're back down to wading through "just" beaches which is significantly better, and will hopefully result in the return of those who actually care about the site's core mission. Perhaps LLMs will, by taking the brunt of bad questions, ultimately be the saviours of this site.
    Ian Kemp - SO dead by AI greed
    –  Ian Kemp - SO dead by AI greed
    2025-06-23 13:09:39 +00:00
    Commented Jun 23 at 13:09
  • 1
    @IanKemp-SOdeadbyAIgreed One possible interpretation. You basically say there always was something like 90% sand. And you hope or assume that the pearls remained. The situation has actually improved, the scope should not be changed and all we need to do is waiting for the lost experts to come back.
    NoDataDumpNoContribution
    –  NoDataDumpNoContribution
    2025-06-23 14:07:26 +00:00
    Commented Jun 23 at 14:07
  • 2
    "High quality solutions to complex programming problems could be the new unique selling point." No, those problems are often way too localised to be useful to other people. And besides all that, how do you propose we re-engage the experts required to answer such questions?
    Cerbrus
    –  Cerbrus
    2025-06-23 14:26:15 +00:00
    Commented Jun 23 at 14:26
  • 4
    Let's face it... Stack Overflow Q&A is going to be a second class citizen at some point. Whatever main seller that Stack Inc. wants to have, it'll have to be a different site that is far more oriented towards feeding people (conditioned by ChatGPT and the like) rather than helping people feed themselves (which is what us old rotters want to keep doing, and rightfully so of course). In effect, the new site will be Reddit. The company is already testing the changes with all the comment experiments and what not, they're just not openly admitting it yet.
    Gimby
    –  Gimby
    2025-06-23 16:33:49 +00:00
    Commented Jun 23 at 16:33
  • 3
    @Gimby The company has its own plan. And yes, it looks like a Reddit clone. Only problem, Reddit already exists. Nothing unique about that. I want to keep the Q&A model but I want to have more new Q&A. I don't want to compromise on quality. Therefore only scope remains.
    NoDataDumpNoContribution
    –  NoDataDumpNoContribution
    2025-06-23 16:52:31 +00:00
    Commented Jun 23 at 16:52
  • 1
    @Gimby "far more oriented towards feeding people (conditioned by ChatGPT and the like) rather than helping people feed themselves". I've always felt that was a copout and tars too many with the same brush. Yes we know there are too many who either don't try or don't know how to try (and never will). But then even those of us who find it imperative to understand and go digging for reason, not simply copy someone else, even we will prefer the shorter path to gaining knowledge.
    Philip Couling
    –  Philip Couling
    2025-07-11 09:09:55 +00:00
    Commented Jul 11 at 9:09
-6

The sad aspect of SO's decline is the loss of community. I personally didn't care when my questions were dismissed or closed out, it was just fun to engage with other devs. Sometimes one of my answers "won" the question (not often tbh) and that was a little dopamine hit. Other times I had a bit of fun posting cheeky answers or using a particular vernacular to get a laugh. Subsequent floggings received were worth the effort. Time to face the horrible truth: my chosen path in life has been devalued. They said it would happen and now it has. I'm working at a 1 hour photo lab and its 2002.

4
  • 2
    Literally "1 hour photo lab"? Or is it an idiom? I don't get it in either case. Also, "its 2002"? What do you mean by that?
    anatolyg
    –  anatolyg
    2025-10-02 08:46:23 +00:00
    Commented Oct 2 at 8:46
  • 4
    @anatolyg I think you've kinda proven OP's point there. "One-hour photo labs" were places that processed photographic film, back in the days when cameras still used film to take pictures. By 2002 they were rapidly dying out, as digital cameras made film cameras obsolete, and by 2025 we've reached the stage where people don't remember they were even a thing. I think you can work out the analogy OP's trying to make from there.
    F1Krazy
    –  F1Krazy
    2025-10-02 10:26:00 +00:00
    Commented Oct 2 at 10:26
  • let m spell it out for you anatoly. PROGRAMMING AS A SKILL IS DEAD.
    Programnik
    –  Programnik
    2025-10-02 23:15:24 +00:00
    Commented Oct 2 at 23:15
  • 1
    What I understood from your answer is, you had great fun in interacting with the community, to mutual benefit. And now this time is gone, and you have moved on. This is partially correct for me too, so ok. But "programming is dead"? If you want to say that, then your opinion is irrelevant for this site. But probably not, you want to say something else entirely, and now I don't understand what you want to say at all.
    anatolyg
    –  anatolyg
    2025-10-03 08:27:48 +00:00
    Commented Oct 3 at 8:27
-17

I agree so strongly with this. You can ask a question today and immediately get downvotes and the question closed. You can then find similarly formed questions (different question) from the past where people actually tried to help.

Fortunately, AI is now reaching the point where it can be very helpful for programming issues. And I am weaning myself away from stackoverflow completely!

14
  • 3
    I think the first paragraph would profit from examples. You basically say that people don't want to answer questions anymore (while in the past they never downvoted at all), which might be true but needs some tangible proof like the question referenced to in this Q&A about secure malloc implementations. And while leaving SO is also fully okay, I doubt there is a much better place. We still need human exchanges, there are always areas where LLMs don't know enough. I'm not always satisfied by LLM generated content. The human exchanges we need should be friendly but also focus on high quality.
    NoDataDumpNoContribution
    –  NoDataDumpNoContribution
    2025-08-31 13:37:37 +00:00
    Commented Aug 31 at 13:37
  • @NoDataDumpNoContribution: I never once claimed people never downvoted at all. That is a strawman that is necessary if you want to show I'm wrong, since what I actually said is not wrong. If you think what I said is just my own crazy opinions, you can start here to read about what is happening. I've posted specific examples in Meta before and no one was able to show a problem with the example question. At least AI engines try to be helpful.
    Jonathan Wood
    –  Jonathan Wood
    2025-08-31 20:09:13 +00:00
    Commented Aug 31 at 20:09
  • 7
    I want to help you showing that you are right, because it's not enough to just state that you are as in this answer. You could link to those specific examples in Meta in this answer for example. I'm totally open to SO users not trying to be helpful anymore, but I want examples of that. That's why I commented.
    NoDataDumpNoContribution
    –  NoDataDumpNoContribution
    2025-08-31 20:24:25 +00:00
    Commented Aug 31 at 20:24
  • Guess where AI gets its training data from? If it's capable of answering your question correctly (and disregarding the high likelihood of non-obvious flaws), almost certainly the answer to your question is already on SO somewhere.
    John Montgomery
    –  John Montgomery
    2025-09-02 18:10:35 +00:00
    Commented Sep 2 at 18:10
  • @JohnMontgomery: Yes, of course. Stackoverflow is still useful for AI training for topics in existing answered questions.
    Jonathan Wood
    –  Jonathan Wood
    2025-09-02 18:26:50 +00:00
    Commented Sep 2 at 18:26
  • @JonathanWood And if you need an answer that AI can't provide (or you recognize that the answers it's giving you are wrong)?
    John Montgomery
    –  John Montgomery
    2025-09-02 21:41:59 +00:00
    Commented Sep 2 at 21:41
  • 1
    @JohnMontgomery: What is your point? I'm not the one trying to kill stackoverflow. It was a great resource, and I'm disappointed with what it's become--along with a lot of other people. What do you want me to do about it? I guess in that case, I'd just need to keep working the problem. But AI is getting better every day even as stackoverflow gets worse!
    Jonathan Wood
    –  Jonathan Wood
    2025-09-03 14:50:35 +00:00
    Commented Sep 3 at 14:50
  • 1
    Based on your apparent idea of how Stack Overflow is supposed to work (which is incorrect), it was only ever useful by accident. Sorry if you feel like you wasted your time. But many other people have seen use in it (try reading the upvoted answers here to get an idea).
    Karl Knechtel
    –  Karl Knechtel
    2025-09-04 05:24:53 +00:00
    Commented Sep 4 at 5:24
  • 1
    @KarlKnechtel: I never said anything about wasting my time. Your comment just fails to recognize what the issues are here. No wonder you think I'm wrong about how stackoverflow is "supposed to work."
    Jonathan Wood
    –  Jonathan Wood
    2025-09-04 16:16:09 +00:00
    Commented Sep 4 at 16:16
  • 1
    @JonathanWood it still is a useful resource, I find answers to my questions on here all the time. The problem is people treating it like a help desk instead of a repository of information, and defaulting to asking a question instead of searching as the starting point. Again, the fact that you can get the answer you were looking for from an AI means that the answer was almost certainly on here already.
    John Montgomery
    –  John Montgomery
    2025-09-04 17:54:05 +00:00
    Commented Sep 4 at 17:54
  • 1
    No; I think you're wrong about how Stack Overflow is supposed to work because the things you have said about how Stack Overflow is supposed to work are incorrect. For example, you say "You can ask a question today and immediately get downvotes and the question closed." [as if this demonstrated a problem]not, but it does not. You say "AI is now reaching the point where it can be very helpful for programming issues", but AI does this in a way that is fundamentally not how the site works.
    Karl Knechtel
    –  Karl Knechtel
    2025-09-04 20:16:20 +00:00
    Commented Sep 4 at 20:16
  • 1
    When people "actually tried to help" according to the kind of "help" you have in mind, they were misusing the site. Nowadays it's actually somewhat possible to keep on top of that, so we try. But if you try reading pretty much any upvoted Q&A on the meta site from around 2013-2016, you can see the issue clearly. The view you present here is wrong, it always has been wrong, and the number of people who agree with it doesn't change that fact. If you want a site that works that way, you are welcome to create it elsewhere.
    Karl Knechtel
    –  Karl Knechtel
    2025-09-04 20:21:18 +00:00
    Commented Sep 4 at 20:21
  • 2
    @KarlKnechtel: And I don't care that you don't care! You don't care that Stackoverflow is in a major decline and I've moved on. So stop spamming me!
    Jonathan Wood
    –  Jonathan Wood
    2025-09-05 19:50:18 +00:00
    Commented Sep 5 at 19:50
  • Karl is finding nobody else to preach to because they are all gone. SO is undeniable in decline but discussing itself will not help much. The reasons for the decline will never become completely clear. I think it's a mixture of AI cannibalizing its data sources, a lack of a friendliness culture and a mission somewhat accomplished. But to what extent each... I have no clue.
    NoDataDumpNoContribution
    –  NoDataDumpNoContribution
    2025-09-06 07:43:14 +00:00
    Commented Sep 6 at 7:43
-21

The only thing I'm disappointed with in the current state of Stack Overflow is the lack of a good VS Code / JetBrains plugin. A good plugin would make it easy for me to post a question right from my IDE. The available plugins only offer to review relevant questions and their answers or some of them barely open a tab in the browser. A better integration with IDE is needed and the Stack Exchange owners are to blame.

2
  • 2
    They do have a plugin like this for VS Code, for business SOfT users.
    Kevin B
    –  Kevin B
    2025-07-23 18:18:58 +00:00
    Commented Jul 23 at 18:18
  • 10
    such a plugin would be a catastrophe. people would use it to dump their entire code on us. thanks but no. we have enough trouble getting people to post a stackoverflow.com/help/minimal-reproducible-example. we will not be turned into a debugging service. that'll cost you folks. AI doesn't cost you. if we actually made you pay for human help, you'd probably value it more.
    Christoph Rackwitz
    –  Christoph Rackwitz
    2025-07-23 20:36:09 +00:00
    Commented Jul 23 at 20:36
-30

What's happening now is that junior developers are no longer needed; Junior developer work can be done in AI. Senior developers are still needed and, therefore, SO is bound to be way less useful for tasks. A senior developer that needs an answer to a relative simple question will not ask it anymore on SO because they know the way they will be tolerated.

This is especially true in the field of C++ in which the arrogance of (so common in *nix complex) "experts" makes anyone like me want to go to ChatGPT because I know how to fix the possible errors in its response.

It's been a great while since any SO answer to my question is useful and, most times, I got helpful hints from the same people in my interest fields.

And yes, in my (example) DirectML/NN/Audio questions that no one here could help, ChatGPT indeed helped (and a comment I posted was immediately flagged just because I mentioned ChatGPT). That's to answer to some that say that if SO goes down, AI won't have a library of answers to rely upon - that's not anymore true. AI can generate code it hasn't seen anywhere yet.

Finally, this place will rest in piece eventually like Experts Exchange and others ... but for a different reason. Because it's full of %$^%$#^ but we couldn't cope without it. But now we can.

6
  • 19
    "Junior developer work can be done in AI" Blatantly false. AI is good enough to expand basic functionality on existing work, or reduce workload in repetitive tasks, but that's basically it. And even then, AI still needs a developer to take control, and validate output.
    Cerbrus
    –  Cerbrus
    2025-05-08 17:32:11 +00:00
    Commented May 8 at 17:32
  • 15
    That's to answer to some that say that if SO goes down, AI won't have a library of answers to rely upon - that's not anymore true. AI can generate code it hasn't seen anywhere yet. I don't think you understand how LLMs work. That's what the 'gen' in genAI means. It was always the case that, for example, chatGPT could generate code that it hadn't seen anywhere. That doesn't mean the result will be correct, or even useful.
    President James K. Polk
    –  President James K. Polk
    2025-05-08 17:42:47 +00:00
    Commented May 8 at 17:42
  • 7
    Your point on training on AI generated code, this is actually not possible, research ( nature.com/articles/s41586-024-07566-y ) shows that training a model like an LLM on generated data risks model collapse, specially when done recursively, so it is not a good idea. This shows how misguided people that push AI for everything are, like this post.
    Dr. Snoopy
    –  Dr. Snoopy
    2025-05-10 07:10:39 +00:00
    Commented May 10 at 7:10
  • 7
    Just to make sure: you understand that the purpose of Stack Overflow is not, and has never been to get your code to work? If an LLM gives you an answer to a personalized question that's good enough for you to solve your problem, it's not any skin off our nose if you use it for that purpose. The LLM doesn't care if your question can be useful for others. We do, because collecting questions that meet those standards is the exact point of what we do.
    Karl Knechtel
    –  Karl Knechtel
    2025-06-06 01:43:22 +00:00
    Commented Jun 6 at 1:43
  • 3
    Yeah so you've changed from someone who wants to find information into someone who wants to be given information. You do you, but that simply means that pretty much the majority of the internet is now pointless to you. Not just Stack Overflow. It's all based on searching, reading and cross-referencing; not prompting.
    Gimby
    –  Gimby
    2025-06-23 13:31:32 +00:00
    Commented Jun 23 at 13:31
  • 2
    @Gimby I'm not entirely convinced that there are really separate groups of people there. Most want to have information, and accepted "finding" it in an era where they perceived that this would actually be faster than requesting it and hoping to be given it. Now that it can be given by an LLM, the calculus changes. In a sense, using a search engine was always "hoping to be given" the information — as demonstrated by forum posts where people gave up quickly, rather than checking multiple results, rephrasing the query or trying harder to understand the top result.
    Karl Knechtel
    –  Karl Knechtel
    2025-09-04 12:43:20 +00:00
    Commented Sep 4 at 12:43

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