Update Pyramid section to be descriptive of what the framework is. #692
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Remove statements as what is most popular and used by default since it is not backed up by data.
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/cc: @bertjwregeer |
| with a heavier focus on modularity. It comes with a smaller number of | ||
| libraries ("batteries") built-in, and encourages users to extend its | ||
| base functionality. | ||
| `Pyramid <http://www.pylonsproject.org/>`_ lies somewhere between a big |
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This paragraph existed in the guide for a while, and was re-written as the original paragraph you are suggesting to replace. What exact information does this pice of text provide that the version your are suggestion be replaced does not? I would prefer to add an additional sentence instead of using this block.
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Pyramid is not at all like Django. It does not make sense to make that comparisson. Django is monolithic, Pyramid is anything but. Django tightly couple it's ORM, its Models, Admin and Form management. Pyramid does none of that and has no opinions about the Resources it uses with only one of them being SQLAlchemy,
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Suggesting it's a lot like Django does a huge disservice to anyone reading the guide. Unlike Django Pyramid is not kitchen sink included. We allow users to pick and chose from the vast Python eco-system so that they can use best of breed tools without requiring explicit framework support.
Pyramid also follows Python packaging standards more closely, which leads to better code re-use across projects, and can work a lot like Flask or Django, and as projects grow Pyramid more easily grows with them, so start Flask like, and over time grow to use the Django like functionality, no rewrites required.
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Thats what "a heavier focus on modularity" is intended to address. Let's focus on rewording that sentence, then.
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We are in #pyramid on Freenode if you wish to get more insight. But if this is a guide it should avoid opinions. |
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This is explicitly an opinionated guide. |
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It can be opinionated, but it is not backed up by data. |
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This on overall creates a bad impression and widens rifts that already exist. By no means is this Positive Python |
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@kennethreitz You may be opinionated, but this is a guide that positions itself as:
Sure the next statement is as follows:
And you may absolutely be opinionated, but why alienate an entire community, when with a couple of changes you could allow someone to decide on their own. There have been a couple of assumptions that this is a "community guide" by people within Pyramid, as the name would imply, and not "Kenneth Reitz's opinion on things Python". It does a great disservice to the community as a whole. |
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I do have personal data to backup these opinions, and am working to share this information over the coming months. I'm sure if you did something as simple as compare download numbers, though, you'd get similar results. Regardless, I don't feel any backup data is needed, as these are clearly heavily opinionated pieces of commentary separate from the rest of the information presented. The same information I'd present to someone if I was speaking to them 1-on-1. It comes as no surprise to me that someone disagrees with one of the statements, especially someone from the Pyramid community. This page really only needs to mention Django and Flask. I added Pyramid to be nice to the Pyramid community, as it's a good but (notably) underused framework, but the information mentioned is important information that needs to be said. Also, this guide has never claimed to be #positivepython. I'm always open, but having these stylistic political statements in this particular section of the guide is far from oversight, and is a conscious decision. You'll note web2py is not present in this guide, despite someone's multiple attempts to include it. It doesn't belong here. I think Pyramid does. |
Mako is not the default for Pyramid, Pyramid no longer has default templates, you can choose one of many
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Most comments deal with factually accurate bits though, not opinions. Pyramid is not like Django. Flask is not a default for those who do not use django. Most Python web stuff is not written in Django. There is literally no data to support this. That's not the same thing as saying "I like django cause this, this and this" |
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It's your guide of course, but what you currently have is light on facts and sadly upsets people because of that. |
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The scope of this PR needs to be reduced to: lightly revising the Pyramid paragraph to make it more accurate. It is currently trying to service too many things. |
restore recommendations on django and flask
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The proposed changes to the Chameleon section will also be accepted. |
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I reworded pyramid bit to include modularity, and restored yoru recommendation for Django and Flask with a tad more neutral pharasing. Also I corrected the Chameleon bit (it does not come from Pyramid at all) as well Mako bit (it's not the default of Pyramid, not templating language is anymore). Tell me if that works better. |
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@kennethreitz do the last set of change work for you? |
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loosing the track of threads here |
| Pyramid does not have a large user base, unlike Django and Flask. It's a | ||
| capable framework, but not a very popular choice for new Python web | ||
| applications today. | ||
| Pyramid is a good choice for developers who like flexibility of their |
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It's important to note here that Pyramid's userbase and community is significantly smaller than the other frameworks mentioned. Code quality is far from the the only qualifier when selecting a web framework.
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@kennethreitz okie, I give up. You have what I wrote. If you want to use it use. If you want to keep your stuff keep it. But opinionated or no what you have there is alienating. It just increases the rifts we already have. |
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Okay — thanks for the attempted contribution. FYI this is why I asked you to open a GitHub issue for discussion, not a pull request :) |
| Being from the Pyramid world, Chameleon is not widely used. | ||
| Integration with Chameleon is available for a number of popular web frameworks | ||
| including Plone/Zope2, Pyramid, Django and Grok. | ||
| See: https://chameleon.readthedocs.org/en/latest/integration.html |
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This is not proper link syntax for this project. This link is also generally needless, as long as we're linking to the overall documentation.
Remove statements as what is most popular and used by default
since it is not backed up by data.